CED VideoDisc and Player Discussion

[7jlong]

One thing I mentioned in the ill-fated Back to the Future thread was that I'm trying to pin down some decent information for integrating old components into an HDTV system. I have no HD anything yet, still on a plain old Sony CRT, but am trying to plan my attack for the day when I make this move.

Rixrex helped me a bit with mentioning the Anchor Bay scan converter systems, but man oh man what a price tag!

With that in mind, what are people thinking about how they might bring their old players into the brave new HDTV world? Have you done it already, and what were the results? What do you look for in a TV set? Are receiver-based scan converters any good? Do you have to go all out just to carry a system that you bought for nothing at Goodwill?

Any relevant input/discussion/etc. welcome! I don't see myself buying this year, but would love to have my groundwork in place for when I start to think about it...

(ok. some of you won't make the move to HD at all. that's cool. next thread, please.)

[Rixrex]

Seems we're here at the same time. Yeah, the price tags are pretty steep at the factory website, but you can find the stuff at half that price or less on ebay, discontinued stock or B stock items still new in the box. The DVDO website can give you details about their older stuff in their archive section.

For example, I got a DVDO Ultra one year ago for about $250 on ebay, which I used on my Pioneer Elite HD big-screen, albeit an older CRT projector model. The best thing the DVDO Ultra can do is convert everything to 480p and scale & anamorph anything widescreen, basically cutting off the black bars and squeezing the image so it can be viewed as if it were a anamorphic DVD to be viewed on the "unsqeeze" setting on your set. Plus the Ultra will output in 15 pin RGB (like a PC) or component out (y-Pr-Pb) like a DVD player, or HDMI out. The other nice thing about it is that it gives you a choice of black or 3 shades of gray sidebars for your fullscreen programs, and it has six different video inputs.

However, if I were to buy a DVDO unit now, I would opt for the HD or HD plus, which can upconvert to a variety of HD formats beyond 480p. I see these on ebay going at very reasonable prices. Whatever you decide, I don't think you will be at all disappointed with the results. They are outstanding for any of the older types of formats, and even enhance the regular DVD viewing experience. You can say good-buy to a lot of the old dot-crawl effect, and the jaggies, and no more overly large scan-lines because you had to use the ZOOM feature on your set to fill the screen (depending upon your set). In fact, you never have to use the ZOOM again for any reason.

[k8fan]

The best approach I've found so far is to use a computer, video capture card ($49) and dScaler software (free). That's how I view all old formats on my HDTV.

[Gunstar]

I'm still using a regular 480i TV myself, and I don't know much about HDTV yet, so I'm not familiar with the problems of hooking up old equipment to HDTV's. So, my question is, what happens if you just hook up a CED player with video out into an HD set? They do still have composite inputs on them don't they? I've heard of people hooking up 80's and 90's video game consoles to HDTV's and using them without a problem.

[Jesse Skeen]

I was just thinking of asking who here has the most "advanced" TV and watched CEDs on it? 11 years ago I got a 40-inch Mitsubishi, which was the biggest picture tube (non-projection) ever made and thought it was funny hooking old equipment up to it. I'm hoping to get an HD set soon, of course a big priority will be to make sure it handles old analog video well. Some new sets have undefeatable "digital enhancements" that make old stuff look awful, but I've seen a few flat-screen TVs that at least can handle old VHS tapes well. Even with high-definition, I'd still rather watch CEDs than almost anything on broadcast TV!
_________________
Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[7jlong]

[Rixrex]

I'll always believe that you have to go for the better quality product to get the better results, but that doesn't mean it has to be the most expensive. You might most likely get poorer results if you go to a big box electronics warehouse with the idea that you'll purchase the cheapest new models. I have yet to find a warehouse store where I live that has any Pioneer sets, which I consider to be one of the top quality models. Not saying that they don't have good stuff, but that stuff is not typically going to be the sales flyer items.

My point is that you want to look for sets that have the best components in regards to upconverting if you're going to rely on your set to do the job. Other than that, if you decide to go with outboard upconversion systems, then you still need to look at the better quality stuff, and that is why I mentioned the DVDO previously, as they are regarded to be a top quality item for this type of job, read their specs on their website, but if you want to buy one, check out ebay instead. Sure, you can find others at less than $100 or so, but they will give you a lousy image by comparison.

Standard (not HD or blue-ray) DVD units most often have built-in P-scan upconversion, as the recorded DVD images are set in 480i, and have to go through upconversion to get to 480p. I have yet to find a DVD player that does a better job than my DVDO unit, including Pioneer and Panasonic top DVD models. My Pioneer set has built-in P-scan upconversion also that is exceptional, but in the Zoom mode, the set will not do the scaling that the DVDO does to remove the enlarged scan lines and jaggies, plus the 3:4 format sidebars are a disconcerting light gray. Most HD sets seem to not have this type of scaling feature too, they will Zoom or do other sorts of image stretching but with no scaling.

[Reinhart]

The reasons for an HDTV not delivering a very good image with regular analogue sources.

1. Poor de-interlacing and/or scaling of the video.
2. Fixed native resolution of plasma, LCD, and LCoS/SXRD displays.

One of the best things you can do is get a good outboard video processor, such as the DVDO iScan 50, and have it apply de-interlacing and scaling to the native resolution of the display. The only problem with this is that these external scalers can be very expensive. But, it's a good investment allowing you to enjoy regular analogue sources to their fullest. - Reinhart

[Rixrex]

Agreed! Onboard processing and/or display is set up for what the market is selling to the average consumer, which is DVD and digital cable or satellite. Everybody except collectors and older folks who don't like to use DVDs are tossing their VCRs. DVDO type outboard processors are the way to go, and the Iscan 50 is superb, yet the B-stock Iscan HD and HDplus will do great and are not too expensive on ebay right now.

[Reinhart]

Of course, keep in mind that older scaling/deinterlacing equipment may require a DVI-to-HDMI adapter to use it with newer displays that lack DVI.

Although, the displays do still use component video input.

[Rixrex]

That's right, and certainly something to consider when buying the older models. Since producing the Iscan Ultra, DVDO has, as standard, DVI outputs on their models, including the Iscan HD and HDplus. You can also use 15-pin HD connector that is typical for RGB inputs if your set has that. The older units, like Pro and ProPlus were only good for RGB or component output. I still have one of these ProPlus models that is hooked into the component input, that I use for Beta and CED, and it works very nicely. This was their first model to offer the black and gray sidebars for 4:3 images viewed on widescreen format sets. So the CED and Beta 480i is transformed into 480p which is fine for my viewing tastes, and they look good on the 64" widescreen Pioneer set. Of course with the sidebars, the image is actually the same size as what it would be on an approx 52" standard set. And I am very hard pressed to tell the difference between LDs played through the DVDO Ultra and standard DVDs, except the LD sound is often better, and has a more filmic look, and does not have any sort of freezing, skipping, or wacky digital pixilation or haloing effect.

[retrodude]

[CEDNERD77]

That's funny I was doing this very thing today actually. Hooked up my SKT090 Player to my HDTV in the living room and it does work and play the movies but the only problem is the picture is very jumpy on the screen. This does not occur on smaller standard TV sets I have in the house. The movies play perfect on those, with a still picture. Guess it's basically the HDTV saying "What the hell is this old thing plugged into me??" HA. I have a Samsung HDTV, 47inch 720/1080 for those curious about the model of TV I tried it on.

[CEDNERD77]

Actually I have an update regarding my post from above. I decided to give my player another run on the HDTV and this time it worked great. I threw in Airplane! and watched it from beginning to end both sides. And there was no jumpy screen, it seemed to hold still throughout it's entire run. So decided to try a few more. Threw in Rocky II and that also displayed a still non-jumpy picture as did Shogun. But Heaven Can Wait had a bit of the jumpies. So I guess it's the quality of the discs I guess, cause the HDTV probably can pick up bad signals alot easier than a standard TV which is the reason why the jumpier movies play just fine on those TVs but not on the HDTV. Seems odd. But oh well, at least some movies play good on it. Maybe I should invest in a new stylus or something.

[Rixrex]

[betamax75]

I would suggest using an A/B switch. From the cable/antenna to the VCR to the A/B switch and then from the CED player using a 75 OHM coaxial cable to the A/B switch and then the A/B switch to your HDTV. The picture looks great on my 22" Sylvania LCD HDTV with no problems.