CED VideoDisc and Player Discussion

[cedmagic]

Today JVC announced the company will no longer make standalone VCRs, although combo DVD/VHS units will still be made:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&u=http://av.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20081027/victor.htm

Those Victor units were the last standalone VCRs, so the product that contributed to CED's demise is approaching its own demise after 30-plus years.

--Tom Howe

[RT9342]

I do wonder if they'll still be making broadcast S-VHS VCRs. Last time I checked, they were still available and still very expensive. Funny how the broadcast/commercial market is - you can still buy Beta VCRs and even Beta camcorders, but you could probably buy 2 or 3 new cars for the same price.

[Jesse Skeen]

Those VHS/DVD units are incredibly stupid, and I can't believe so many of them have been made. Already you can find them in thrift stores with one or both mechanisms no longer working. If they were going to make these they should have gone all-out with the VHS deck and had it play Super VHS and D-Theater high-definition tapes, but most of them are no-frills units. These are just geared towards people who are afraid to hook up more than one thing to their TVs.

Laserdisc/DVD players were a much better idea, I'm still using mine but will probably have to retire it once I finally upgrade to a new TV, as it doesn't do progressive scan or HDMI on DVDs.
_________________
Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[7jlong]

Agreed on the foolishness of dual-purpose DVD/VCR: some friends of mine bought one, and now a new DVD player sits stacked on top of it as the DVD transport failed some time ago.

My father always cautioned me about combo units of any kind, though I admittedly do love my Laserdisc/DVD combo. I think the trouble begins when you have more than one transport in a unit.

I have been without a VCR for some time since my last one died. I don't trust any of the new ones and so dutifully stop by the thrift stores hoping for a good old deck that I can nurse along until I have copied everything over to digital. In the meantime I've gone through the tapes and toss the stuff that can be easily had dirt cheap on DVD (fascinatingly, I haven't replaced most of them).

There's still those pesky original tapes, though, and a few rarities that have yet to go on DVD.

Still don't know quite what I'm going to do when I change TVs, though. I don't watch broadcast stuff, so I can hold onto my current old tube 'til it dies, but I should really start planning for the future now...

[Rixrex]

Funny how things considered sub-par by some can be desired by others. I also thought the combo DVD/VHS was a dufus idea, until I realized that it was basically made for those type of people who just learned how to program their VCR in 2001. If there's enough 'dufuses' out there who want it, it will be made, and it's certainly not a dumb idea to make a product that you can sell if you make it suitable for the market that wants it. Especially considering the fact that there's plenty of high-end equipment around for the rest of us who want that instead. Let the technically handicapped have their low-end stuff. I'm sure they all think that CED was a dopey idea too, those who knew about it.

I even found myself recently wanting a silver-toned combo unit for my vintage console TV that only has an RF input, and I found a nice Toshiba at the swap meet for $15 with remote & variable zoom. You see, those combo units have RF out for both VHS & DVD, whereas nearly all standalone DVD players don't. This allowed me to add DVD to the old console easily via my vintage RF switcher, and complemented the vintage appearance of the other silver/gray toned LD and Beta machines, and CED player.

I do agree that combo units are not desirous for high end setups, with the lone exception of the Pioneer DVL series of LD/DVD players. Here's one instance where you can get both top-quality LD playback with excellent DVD playback. Interlaced scan isn't a problem when you have a set that has built-in P-scan circuitry, and usually it's better than the P-scan circuitry of the player anyway.

[7jlong]

Oh, don't get me wrong - conceptually I think a VHS/DVD combo is a terrific idea: saves space, etc.

Unfortunately, the design and execution of these units seems to have been poor at best - which, to me, is at the heart of the problem. All the big companies must have parts, heads, and transports lying around in abundance somewhere, and if I were offered a Blu-ray player that had a slick, well-built VHS side for enjoyment of my rarities/original tapes?

I'd buy it in a second. But I'd need them to actively flaunt the durability and quality of both units - a concept that the companies don't seem so fond of anymore.

[RT9342]

I still wonder why a certain person I know still buy full combos (DVD/VHS, built into the TV) after having to replace the whole TV several times, every time the VCR or DVD player fails. But then again, that same person is the one who...get this: this person's first TV only had screw terminal connections, so a 75-ohm (F-connector) to 300-ohm (spade terminals) adapter was used to connect a cable. No problem. But when this person replaced the TV with a combo, which had an F-connector...instead of taking off the 75-ohm to 300-ohm adapter to hook the cable directly to the TV, this person bought a 300-ohm (screw terminals) to 75-ohm (F-connector) adapter to connect to the existing adapter (so the cable was now being converted to screw terminals, and then back to a cable). Yeah, that's who's buying combos.
Now as far as me and my old VHS tapes, I got a commercial SVHS VCR and I love the way it works. You can still find them on eBay - a little pricey, but not too bad. It actually uses computer processing to make the video look about Laserdisc quality (actually almost DVD quality, except for dark scenes, which still have some noise), and though my particular VCR doesn't have it, some actually have component video output. The VU meters and commercial style controls layout are also nice. They do have their downsides, though, which limit their usability for home use. They have no tuner (so you can't use the VCR as a demodulator for your old mono CED player) and they only record and playback in SP. No LP. No SLP (or EP if you prefer). If you put in an LP or SLP tape, it'll play it, but at SP (that's actually kind of interesting to watch...for a few seconds or so, then it starts to get annoying).

[Rixrex]

Actually, I have two of these VCR/DVD combos that are very good, a Toshiba and a JVC. Most of them that were on the market, though, were from the cheapo off-brand makers or even the name brands that used the cheapo stuff with their moniker on such so they could sell them at Wal-Mart and Target. I like the RF output for playing DVDs on my console that has only RF in. The only other DVD player I've seen with RF out is a Philips DVD player/recorder I have that has RF out.

The guy you describe above is typical of the average consumer, well maybe a bit more of a dufus, but not by much. Though I have the VCR/DVD combos due to the RF out DVD capabilities, I could never understand those who'd buy a TV set with all things built into it. Just recently an older friend mentioned a TV console they had with radio/tape player/record player all built in, and they were thinking it was really valuable because it was pretty old. But then I saw the TV didn't work, so I let them know that they'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would want it, even for free. And of course top-end equipment never came in that form anyway.

[RT9342]

You're right - there are some good combos out there. And I haven't thought about that, how you can use a combo to get RF output from the DVD without a seperate modulator. I can see that to be a legitimate reason to buy a DVD/VCR combo...as long as the TV isn't part of the combo of course. There's one thing I always wondered. You ever seen a VCR that was so screwed up that it would turn itself off as soon as you turned it on or tried to put in a tape? If you have a TV/VCR combo with the same problem, would the TV turn off with the VCR? That was what kept me from ever being tempted to buy one when they first came out. What really disappointed me was I assumed that they would have better picture quality. Think about it - if you have a VCR built into the TV, you wouldn't need to mix the luminance & chrominance signals, and in fact, you could probably even have the TV decode the VCR's color carrier signal without having to convert it to 3.58MHz. So why is it that most of the combos I've seen actually have worse picture quality than even a cheap VCR hooked up to a cheap TV with an RF cable? Sad. The only thing I saw on the TV/VCR combos that looked better was that the VCR menus and on-screen displays were RGB, and were apparently generated by the TV section's own on-screen display generator. That was a nice feature, but certainly not enough to make me buy one. But having said that, I do appologize if I may have offended anyone who bought a good quality DVD/VCR combo for legitimate reasons.

[Jason1976]

The funny thing is I saw one of these out for the trash the other day. a tv/vcr/dvd combo. I picked it up. It had a vhs tape suck inside. I found out someone must of pushed the tape in to fast or jammed it inside. After aligning the cartage unit it works great. But I found out that the DVD player won’t play my computer back up copies. It only plays original DVD’s

[RT9342]

Cool! Nothing wrong with owning a combo if you got it for free. Some DVD players are like that - my first one wouldn't read any kind of writable disc - only factory-pressed discs. And though I haven't tried it, my Blu-Ray player supposedly won't play burned Blu-Ray discs, though it will play burned DVD's, and if you download a new software version and burn it to a DVD-ROM, the Blu-Ray player can read it and update the software to a new version that lets the player read burned Blu-Ray discs. Strange how much the software can affect the player's functionality.

You know what kind of combo I would have liked to see? A CED/Laserdisc player. That would have been really weird if they had ever come up with that, right? I've seen Laserdisc/DVD combos and even Blu-Ray/HD-DVD combos, so despite the vast differences in the two formats, I'm sure that they could have eventually made a CED/Laserdisc combo, had CED stayed on the market longer.

[Rixrex]

An LD/CED combo? That would have been pretty wacky and quite an engineering feat considering all of the disparate aspects of each format. About the only thing they really have in common physically is the disc size. The LD/DVD combos that Pioneer made still had to use two separate lasers and laser mechanisms to play each, as each mechanism is shuttled off to a "side track" when not in use, like trains that share the same main line.

I would think that a combo of this type would have been either two separate players sandwiched together or so expensive to produce, it just would not have made sense. Plus they were sort of competing technologies, kind of like Beta/VHS. And I don't recall ever seeing a combo Beta/VHS player.

However, the Pioneer combo LD/DVD players are superb products and I have replaced all of my standard LD players with them, all but one that is.

[RT9342]

I agree. I still think it would have been an interesting concept, though. True, there were no VHS/Beta combos that I know of, but I have seen VHS/8mm combo decks and VHS/MiniDV combo decks. Talk about strange combinations!

As far as what you said about the LD/DVD combos, if I'm not mistaken, most (if not all) of the LD players that play CD's are the same way. At least the ones I've seen are. I can understand using such a complicated system to combine LD technology with DVD technology, but I always thought it was a bit overkill to use such a mechanism just to add CD audio playback to a Laserdisc player. Personally, I never had any desire to want to play CD's on my Laserdisc player. (I couldn't if I wanted to anyway - my old, old, old laserdisc players can't play CD's.)

So, you say the LD/DVD combos are superb? I might have to try one out. I have a couple of PR-7820 for watching my laserdiscs. Old, old, old machines - my oldest one was manufactured April 1979! I found that funny, because I always thought CED players came out first.

[Rixrex]

By the time VHS/8mm combo decks and VHS/MiniDV combo decks came out, Beta and VHS were no longer competing technologies in the marketplace.

Disregarding the really old LD players, Ld players typically would also play CDs and some would play VCDs. The laser was the same for those purposes. CDs played on a high quality LD player are quite a bit better in playback than most CD players. Pioneer had LD player that would accept 5 CDs in a rotating tray and also LDs, too.

The newer type combo LD/DVD players from Pioneer do the best job of both LD and DVD playback I've seen, even when considering my Pioneer Elite DVD-only player. I preferred Panasonic LX-1000u LD players because it was a better player for LDs than any Pioneer I'd seen until I got the combo unit. I got a few of the Pioneer combos recently, but I still kept one of the Panasonics anyway.

The most common models are DVL-700, DVL-909 and DVL-919. While all are superb, DVL-700 looks the best in outward appearance with a unique front face, only DVL 909 and 919 have DVD output in component form. All 3 have coaxial and optical sound output, and LD AC3 output, and will output Dolby Digital on DVD/LD and DTS on LD, but only DVL-919 will output DVD DTS sound.

In playback of oddball DVDs like DVD-R, the DVL 919 does the best job. I prefer the appearance of the DVL-700 by far, but also got the DVL-919 for it's ability to playback nearly all types of DVDs and DVD DTS sound.

I think that if you moved up to a DVL combo from those old LD models, you'd be amazed at the difference in picture and sound quality on your LDs regardless of when they were manufactured. If you decide to buy a DVL model, since they are typically second-hand, make sure you find one well-kept, preferably original owner if possible. Also, either go for pick-up of it, or demand a superb packing job.

Out of the few I bought this past year, I was able to pick up a couple of them, but the ones that were shipped, half of them arrived damaged in shipping because the dopes selling them didn't take care to pack them well. And one guy was just a scumball who intentionally sold me a non-working player, saying it was in good shape.

[RT9342]

Thanks for the info on those players. And I'm sorry to hear about the eBay scam - I've run into a couple of bad deals like that before...as well as problems like you mentioned about people not packing the stuff right. I do have to put some of the blame on the shippers, though. I think people would pack the boxes better if they ever had a chance to see just how these shipping companies handle the boxes. When I worked for Radio Shack, I used to talk with the UPS guys sometimes as they were bringing or taking boxes - they would literally just throw the boxes into the trucks like if they were throwing trash (i.e., broken TV/VCR combos!) into a dumpster. That's the main reason that I try to refrain from having any CED or LD stuff shipped (though I usually don't have much choice - that stuff's hard to find in my area), not to mention the 100 or so GM DiscoVision discs that I bought that got "lost" by FedEx one time.

[71chevyvan]

knowing that they will be gone soon, i purchased a liteon dvd/vhs combo
recorder player on ebay.darn thing works great. it even plays Svhs tapes in quasi vhs playback format. i don't record vhs but i have used it to transfer vhs home movies to dvd.
next i'll try transfering some CEDS and old laser discs to dvd.
_________________
An analog kind of guy forced to live in a digital world:>)

[Reinhart]

[Rixrex]

Yeah, the only Beta VCRs are used and still pricey enough for good, solid Sony machines. The price of a car, though? Well I have bought cars before for $100, and not that long ago either.

I always liked the Sanyo top-loading Betas because they rewind the tape after pulling back into the case, like the older VHS. They are the cheaper type models though. But I got a Beta rewinder so no problem now.

Beta is fun to have if you have one hooked onto an older console, and esp if top-loader, so all the visitors can get into a conversation about how they sold their expensive beta decks for almost nothing, and joined the stampede rushing to VHS.

There's nothing like a stampede of band-wagon jumping consumers to wind up the marketplace, either to or away from whatever.

[RT9342]

Yep, I'm afraid I did get BetaMax and BetaCam mixed up. I knew they had their differences, but I didn't realize how different they really were. My commercial SVHS VCR is not fully compatible with consumer VHS VCR's - it won't play LP or SLP tapes, and unless you disable several functions on the VCR, its tapes won't work on a consumer VCR, but it's still possible to swap standard-formatted SP tapes between the commercial machines and the consumer machines. I guess because of that and other factors (such as a common cassette), I figured that BetaMax and BetaCam had some compatibility (perhaps in the Beta I mode or something), but after reading the posts here, and then doing research, I was kind of surprised to see just how different the formats are.

$100 cars? Wow! But I'm guessing they were not exactly in perfect condition (of course, if they were, I'd LOVE to know who you bought them from). But now that you know that I was mistakenly referring to BetaCam, well...most those really are pretty expensive, like buying new cars at the dealer.

As far as BetaMax VCR's, I occasionally see them in thrift stores for $10, and several years ago, I had bought I really nice one at that price. The only other VCR I ever owned that I could say may have had better picture quality is that commercial SVHS unit of mine, but I can't even say that it's really a whole lot better. The Beta's were really nice. Sometimes I wish I kept mine, but I was hardly using it, and I had too much junk, and I had a friend who really wanted one, so I let him have it. I think he still uses it.

Maybe it's just me, but I always thought that BetaMax had the most comparable picture quality to CED of all the formats. VHS always looked pretty crappy and laserdisc has its ups and downs, but as far as the old analog formats, I always thought that those two were pretty good.

[cedmagic]

Besides the end of standalone VHS decks, it sounds like the retail availability of VHS tapes is coming to an end:

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-vhs-tapes22-2008dec22,0,5852342.story

According to the article, the last major Hollywood film on VHS was A History of Violence back in 2006. Most retail stock since then has been coming from the liquidator Distribution Video Audio Inc., which recently made its last shipment of VHS stock.

I wonder if this liquidator ever sold CED's?

--Tom Howe

[Jesse Skeen]

I'd already declared VHS dead when I got into laserdisc 15 years ago. Neat article but there's still no word on the future of blank tapes. There's probably enough unsold ones out there right now to meet most of the remaining demand; there's still hundreds of unused blank 8-tracks out there for anyone who still wants to record on those.

A few of my neighbors have been tossing their VHS tapes in the dumpster and I've rescued a few of them. Since a lot of tapes had previews on them, it's worth checking which ones are on what tapes since sometimes that's the only way a movie's trailer has been available. Some have hilarious promos suggesting you buy a "previously viewed" (used and abused) tape for the price a new copy should have sold for.
_________________
Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[Rixrex]

I still have several VHS movies that may never get onto DVD, as they are rather unique and would not be big sellers even in cult markets. I also will buy on VHS those movies that don't have the type of action, flash or effects that are preferable on DVD or LD, stuff like drama movies etc, because they go for 25 cents to $1, even new.

The LA Times article however was incorrect in one thing, and that is that the last movie released on VHS was actually the widescreen version of the 2005 'The Fog' remake, and not History of Violence, which was released on VHS about 2 weeks before The Fog. In fact The Fog wasn't released on VHS in standard format, only widescreen unrated edition, same as on DVD. Unfortunately, as is typical, the LA Times article is used as an infallible source for many other internet articles repeating this, so that this misinformation then becomes fact in the minds of many internet readers, who then repeat it, and on and on. Who'd think that something like this could ever happen on the savvy internet?

I'd agree with the observation that Betamax is similar in quality to CED, and that the older VHS tapes are a bit lesser, but the difference is not tremendous. However, I would not say that good factory VHS tapes from the 90s and later are lesser, and actually seem to be better than both beta and CED. As far as LD, well, it's heads above any of those formats when made from high-quality sources, and with a good P-scan enhancer, can rival standard DVD.