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Rcalcitrant Realistic CED-1

 
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:20 am    Post subject: Rcalcitrant Realistic CED-1 Reply with quote

I am working on a CED-1 and ran into 2 problems. I had replaced the loading belt and the arm drive belt with ones that I got from Tom. The problem was that the turntable did not rise enough so that the stylus could touch the disc. Without any other option, I replaced the loading belt with one that I just got from PRB and the the PRB belt fixed the turntable problem. The second problem was that there was a squeaking noise coming from the arm drive motor area. I replaced the arm drive belt with one from PRB and the noise got louder. What is going on? The noise only exists as the arm is moving into position over the disc. When the arm stops moving and starts moving the stylus over the disc very slowly does the sound stop.

Any idess?
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Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600


Last edited by dumbchemist on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To clarify: Is this a player you were talking about in 2015 or a different one?

Selectavison420 replied to that post twice last week and blanked out his two posts.
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And it sounds like when your power steering squeals almost to me by way of comparison, in that case a silicone spray is applied but I would think the belt you got may be fractionally too large or not the correct belt type.

I'm not an expert and I never stayed in a Holiday Inn Express to paraphrase the ad.
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perhaps some backstory would help here:

In Oct. 2016. I bought this CED-1 from a store within driving distance of me. I drove there, picked up the player and was assured that "It played". I got the player home and tried to "play it" and got nowhere. I opened the player up and found both belts had broke some time ago. I ordered both belts from Tom and waited 6 weeks for them. When I got them, I installed both of them and tried to play a disc and got nowhere again. At this point, I shelved the project.

Fast forward to yesterday. I had such good success with a Hitachi VIP1000 that I decided to revisit the CED-1. I opened the player up and tried to play a disc when I found out that the turntable was not rising high enough. Since I had new belts from PRB I decided to replace the loading belt. This seemed to fix the turntable lifting problem. At this point, the arm drive started to squeal as it moved across to the disc. I tried numerous times to load a disc and each time the squeal came back and the sound came from the arm motor area. Since I had a new belt from PRB, I replaced the arm belt. This did not help as the squeal became louder. Now, the squeal only sounds off when the arm was moving fast as when the arm is moving over to start playing a disc or when the arm is retracting to its rest position.

Enough of the litany:

Could the squeal come from the arm showing resistance to moving, the arm motor needing lubrication, or what? Would oiling the linear bearings that the arm moves on, help?
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600


Last edited by dumbchemist on Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:14 am; edited 3 times in total
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can you localize the noise further? Since the squeal became more prominent to you it sounds like either a belt is looser now or maybe tight and making a pulley strain harder.

Is there an alignment issue? Does it look like it's been worked on before, were there any screws with that wonderful sealant spayed in them disturbed (you know the kind, usually green or something and covering the screws you really need to get at in the most annoying way)?

Does anything look bent or wiggly?
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kitchensynch wrote:
Can you localize the noise further? Since the squeal became more prominent to you it sounds like either a belt is looser now or maybe tight and making a pulley strain harder.

Is there an alignment issue? Does it look like it's been worked on before, were there any screws with that wonderful sealant spayed in them disturbed (you know the kind, usually green or something and covering the screws you really need to get at in the most annoying way)?

Does anything look bent or wiggly?


To answer your questions:
1) The sound seems to be coming from the pulley not on the arm drive motor. In observing the pulleys, the non-motor pulley can be seen to move erratically when it is making the noise. (By the way, the old belts were broken and had not turned to goo.)
2) I do not know if there is an alignment issue. The linear bearings for the stylus arm look straight.
3) The player looked untouched internally when I opened it up.
4) There is no sealant that I can see.

Would using an electrical spray on the linear bearings, help?
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600


Last edited by dumbchemist on Tue Jan 16, 2018 12:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

NO. Electrical spray is for conductivity issues, this is a mechanical problem.

Your issue is that PULLEY. You need to either fix the wobble or replace part(s).

Have you heard anything like a bearing loose in the chassis?

You'll have to move it about, be careful.

The reason that you possibly had broken belts may well be that something jammed or was forced in the machine IMO.

By the way, if you have a CED on hand when you go to look at a machine in person, ask to use it for loading...if they start getting resistant there is something not being told to you or they just don't know. It's a white elephant to them, they may never have seen one, maybe it's from Mars but it said Realistic... If they really don't know and just want it gone, be nice and make a fair bargain for their efforts.

Off hand I had the same notion the first time I saw sealed quad 8-tracks at my first 'thrift store' visit in Northern California back in 1982...but one was by the Carpenters so I figured Marvin the Martian wasn't a Carpenters fan Wink
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I marked the top of the mon-motor pulley with a magic marker so that I could observe its movement, The pulley rotates back and forth very easily. The non-motor pulley is on a shaft that goes down into the player. On the end of the shaft seems to be a very small worm gear. The worm gear engages a much larger white plastic gear. This is speculation; but, the sound seems to be coming from the worm gear. The worm gear maybe worn enough to slip causing the squeal.

At this point, I have run out of options. The player maybe worth repairing except that I lack the knowledge and the parts to do the job. I suppose I could ship it off to someone who is cognizant in its repair. I just don't know who.

Any ideas?
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have any service manual materials with you or can you ask, and can you send a picture here, send it to cedatum or SV420?

ketonic_dude also repairs players regularly although it would be easier to help you diagnose and find parts to repair it yourself, you've already got some experience.
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kitchensynch wrote:
Do you have any service manual materials with you or can you ask, and can you send a picture here, send it to cedatum or SV420?

ketonic_dude also repairs players regularly although it would be easier to help you diagnose and find parts to repair it yourself, you've already got some experience.


The only paper reference that I have fior the CED-1 is the Basic Circuit Diagram, a paper 28 5/8" X 11". The diagram is printed on both sides.of the paper and shows all the electrical components used.to make the CED1 work. It is not much help when you are dealing with player gearing. I also have the service manual for the SJT-090 up to the SJT-300 RCA players. Not of much use either.
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600


Last edited by dumbchemist on Fri Feb 02, 2018 6:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tony just posted a video on repairing a Sears player the other day that might guide you, he posted the link here in the last day. I think it may well help you in general because he also had no real manual and was relying on previous skills and being a true mechanic.
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Moonie



Joined: 25 Nov 2017
Posts: 25

PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dumbchemist wrote:
I marked the top of the mon-motor pulley with a magic marker so that I could observe its movement, The pulley rotates back and forth very easily. The non-motor pulley is on a shaft that goes down into the player. On the end of the shaft seems to be a very small worm gear. The worm gear engages a much larger white plastic gear. This is speculation; but, the sound seems to be coming from the worm gear. The worm gear maybe worn enough to slip causing the squeal.

At this point, I have run out of options. The player maybe worth repairing except that I lack the knowledge and the parts to do the job. I suppose I could ship it off to someone who is cognizant in its repair. I just don't know who.

Any ideas?


Normally, when a worm gear engages a "normal" type of gear, it's the worm gear doing the work of driving the other gear. If the worm gear isn't loose on it's shaft, and there's no other gearing between the worm and motor, the squeal is coming from where the worm and driven gear mesh. That's assuming it isn't coming from a point after this. If the gears are both plastic, it makes sense to get a loud squeal even from a small bit of wear, especially when they move at higher speeds. Maybe a little bit of petro jelly at that point of meshing will help you to find out. I say this because it's heavy enough to not drip off and easy to clean if need be. Just don't get it on any belts.

Of course, it could also be a bearing in the motor that drives the worm gear. I once had a VHS rewinder that would act up this way depending upon the load, and it was the tiny drive motor bearing.
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moonie wrote:
dumbchemist wrote:
I marked the top of the mon-motor pulley with a magic marker so that I could observe its movement, The pulley rotates back and forth very easily. The non-motor pulley is on a shaft that goes down into the player. On the end of the shaft seems to be a very small worm gear. The worm gear engages a much larger white plastic gear. This is speculation; but, the sound seems to be coming from the worm gear. The worm gear maybe worn enough to slip causing the squeal.

At this point, I have run out of options. The player maybe worth repairing except that I lack the knowledge and the parts to do the job. I suppose I could ship it off to someone who is cognizant in its repair. I just don't know who.

Any ideas?


Normally, when a worm gear engages a "normal" type of gear, it's the worm gear doing the work of driving the other gear. If the worm gear isn't loose on it's shaft, and there's no other gearing between the worm and motor, the squeal is coming from where the worm and driven gear mesh. That's assuming it isn't coming from a point after this. If the gears are both plastic, it makes sense to get a loud squeal even from a small bit of wear, especially when they move at higher speeds. Maybe a little bit of petro jelly at that point of meshing will help you to find out. I say this because it's heavy enough to not drip off and easy to clean if need be. Just don't get it on any belts.

Of course, it could also be a bearing in the motor that drives the worm gear. I once had a VHS rewinder that would act up this way depending upon the load, and it was the tiny drive motor bearing.


I tried putting a small drop of petroleum jelly on the worm gear and tried to play a disc. The "noise" is still there only a little bit lower in volume. I get the impression that this player may have been a store demo and has had a high number of playing hours. If you can stand the noise, the player still works. I am going to put a note on it that it works; but, it is noisy so I remember why it is shelved.

Meantime, I did a BIN on another VIP1000 on E-bay. The seller has no idea how these players work. He plugged it in and did not see any lights so he sold the player to me for "parts or repair"..
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am currently working on a second Hitachi VIP1000. I noticed a difference between the CED-1 and the VIP1000 in the worm gears. The CED-1 has a worm gear that is black (possibly plastic) and the gear it turns is a horizontal plastic gear. The VIP1000 has a metal worm gear and the gear it turns is vertical. You can definitely see which player has had more money spent on it by the manufacturer. .The VIP1000 is built to last.
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600


Last edited by dumbchemist on Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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kitchensynch



Joined: 24 Feb 2013
Posts: 904

PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had an RCA Dimensia CD player (I THINK it was, it would be WAY back several years in the threads) and believe it was Hitachi sourced.

It DID look a little arcane in there, but it worked well. I sold it eventually.

I'm also told my Realistic SCT-30 cassette deck with Double Dolby NR, dual capstans and three heads is a rebadged Hitachi.

I wish that I had known that replacement cassette drives were available for the 1981 CT models in the Pioneer line (the year all the classic silvers went away for that champagne-ish with dark panels and icons) as I had a CT-7R that needed TLC but I also had a $130 Sanyo deck that had all the features except autoreverse and Dolby C and didn't need three 'daughter' boards mounted vertically to achieve that...but all the ICs on on the Pioneer were Hitachi made. The next years Yamaha helped them some (TX-950 is a favorite other than the really poor design of the panel buttons as they are ususally broken or come unglued from the microswitches...they were 'L' shaped and tend to come loose or break at the one piece top 'hinge').

Anyway a great tuner with an Achilles' heel, really disappointing.

Pioneer and Onkyo finally merged a few years ago and it has been truly amazing that they survived as an independent company for more than 60 years as they were the Chrysler of audio, financially.
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
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Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kitchensynch wrote:
Tony just posted a video on repairing a Sears player the other day that might guide you, he posted the link here in the last day. I think it may well help you in general because he also had no real manual and was relying on previous skills and being a true mechanic.


I watched his video and was appalled at what I saw. He was forcing the stylus arm across its travel. I did the same with my Sears player and I could hear the inside gears grating against each other. Doing such forcing is asking for trouble. The gears could lose teeth thus making them unusable.

Now, he may have warned against such behavior. I do not have sound on my PC so if he stated a warning I did not hear it.

Please, people do not force anything within a CED player as you could cause damage.
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600
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SelectaVision420



Joined: 25 Mar 2012
Posts: 1325
Location: Hartford

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dumbchemist wrote:
kitchensynch wrote:
Tony just posted a video on repairing a Sears player the other day that might guide you, he posted the link here in the last day. I think it may well help you in general because he also had no real manual and was relying on previous skills and being a true mechanic.


I watched his video and was appalled at what I saw. He was forcing the stylus arm across its travel. I did the same with my Sears player and I could hear the inside gears grating against each other. Doing such forcing is asking for trouble. The gears could lose teeth thus making them unusable.

Now, he may have warned against such behavior. I do not have sound on my PC so if he stated a warning I did not hear it.

Please, people do not force anything within a CED player as you could cause damage.


the whole video was a warning against what i was doing basically... but problem solving is problem solving when you dont have a manual :/
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(2)Sears 274 & 934(80150,10&11350),sft100,sgt250,sjt 090-400,vp550, VP4000!
'84 Dimensia Owner
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dumbchemist



Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 411
Location: Central New York

PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SelectaVision420 wrote:
dumbchemist wrote:
kitchensynch wrote:
Tony just posted a video on repairing a Sears player the other day that might guide you, he posted the link here in the last day. I think it may well help you in general because he also had no real manual and was relying on previous skills and being a true mechanic.


I watched his video and was appalled at what I saw. He was forcing the stylus arm across its travel. I did the same with my Sears player and I could hear the inside gears grating against each other. Doing such forcing is asking for trouble. The gears could lose teeth thus making them unusable.

Now, he may have warned against such behavior. I do not have sound on my PC so if he stated a warning I did not hear it.

Please, people do not force anything within a CED player as you could cause damage.


the whole video was a warning against what i was doing basically... but problem solving is problem solving when you dont have a manual :/


10-4 on that.
_________________
Sears 934-54780150 & 934.54810350,
Realistic CED-1
2-Hitachi VIP1000
RCA SJT-200.
Pioneer CLD-D406, CLD-980.
Sony MDP-600
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