CED VideoDisc and Player Discussion

[ketonic_dude]

This can be a rather heated topic over on the laserdisc pages. For some reason they all feel the need to trash CED even though its not a competition. I myself collect both CED and Laserdisc and they both have their strong points and weak points. I always take offense to when they complain about how bad CED is with the skips and stuff when they probably have only ever seen one disc and it was probably run over by a truck first. I know I have watched many a CED without so much as a hiccup. What are your thoughts or opinions about CED vs. Laserdisc?

[Beetlescott]

I'm like you Josh, I believe those guys who crow the loudest on those sites, have prolly watched a small smattering of discs, prolly one they picked up at a Goodwill store or yard sale. I too have several discs I can watch with no skips.. I'll say this, when I bought my first player, in August of 1982, and started buying a few discs, not many because of the price, but when the brand new discs had some skips in them, I would notice tiny finer than a hair "splinters" on the inner lip of the caddy. I can only imagine the splinters must of been because of the brand new pressing of the discs. Deanjeep once said If you love the CED format, you have to endure the occasional skip or jump, it is a part of the charm. As far as comparing them to Laser discs, I don't think it is a competition.
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SGT-250
SGT-200
SFT-100
SKT-100

[CEDvince]

I hate when laserdisc people yeah CED, they can get really snobby over there. I don't see why they can't understand that people do enjoy the format, and instead of running their mouths they could learn something about it.
I like CED because of the cover art, the fun of the hunt trying to find them, the simplicity of the players abd the ability for me to fix them myself.
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2 - RCA SFT-100
Zenith VP-2000
Realistic CED-1
2 - RCA SGT-200
2-RCA SJT-400

[Beetlescott]

You know, the thing is, if CEDs had of come out, just 5 years before they did, I believe they would of caught on and gone so much farther!
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SGT-250
SGT-200
SFT-100
SKT-100

[blindfury420]

I dont mind the occasional skip, hell its why I like vinyl anything period. A little hiss, pops and crackles are what give its old school charm for me. It doesn't have to p[lay perfect but i know when it is toast and not watchable! I get such a nostalgic feeling every time I watch a ced which is at least 3 times a week on random ass players I own!
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I dont own

McMicheal 5001h
Hitachi VIP202P
JCP 686-5705
RCA SKT265, SKT300
RCA SJT400X, SJT425

[Mayor West]

I love the seemingly over/under engineering of CED discs and players. They're just so incredibly unique. Being a wholly US industry is also very neat. I don't have much sense of wonder with LD, I get it, it is a giant dvd'ish thing, done.

Like mentioned above, 5 years earlier and this would've been an awesome medium.
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If you always do what you've always done, you're going to get what you've always got.

SJT300

[kitchensynch]

Laservision almost managed to kill itself more than once, with the way MCA Discovision Associates managed to bollox Magnavox's entry, sparklies, ticking off IBM, forcing Pioneer to save the whole affair when they were in another of their historic funks and needed optical technology and video to survive (especially DIGITAL)...

Pioneer was phenominal, and now the old Pioneer is gone as we knew it...the company split and the home electronics part is being sold...

[cbertra2]

I was into CED and Laser Disc at the same time. I had much more problems with laser rot than I ever did with CED skipping. If a CED disc skipped you backed up and played it over and the skip would go away. Laser rot only continued to get worse untill the disc was unwatchable.

[SelectaVision420]

just because there are more laserdiscs doesnt make them better most of the movies i have display some sort of flaw here and there, but the ones i watch frequently always play better the next time! and i can say i have a lot of discs that dont skip, maybe some tiny visual crackel here and there but i pre play discs and check them visually before they ever hit a player so i can typically spot the bad ones ahead of time
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(2)Sears 274 & 934(80150,10&11350), sft100, sgt250, sjt 090-400, vp550, VDR3000, VP2000 & 4000
complete '84 Dimensia Owner

[ketonic_dude]

cbertra2 has a point. I would much rather pay $5 for a CED that has a little skipping then $25 for the same movie on laserdisc only to find out it has rot and eventually becomes unwatchable. That CED I bought will still be around 20 years from now. When I first started collecting laserdiscs I asked the other collectors "How common is rot" of course they all said it almost never happens. So I started my collection. But it seemed every other post on the laserdisc pages is someone complaining about their favourite disc getting rot. I really don't watch my laserdiscs too often, I've probably only seen a half dozen movies on laserdisc but sure enough one of them I watched had the beginning signs of rot. Why anyone would want to pay such high prices for these discs that just rot away is beyond me. I personally just collect them for the cover art and to say I have a certain film on laserdisc even though I may never watch it on that format (especially if it has rotted away).

I also see these laserdisc collectors pay such high prices for movies like The Matrix and Southpark. I understand that they are rare and that drives the price up but I mean, The Matrix really? You can get the DVD for $2 these days and it plays better than the laserdisc. But I guess there are titles on CED that are the same way. Although I feel like Ryan with CED and that it takes you back to another era with the crackles and pops, when you watch a laserdisc or DVD they looks so pristine you minus well just buy the bluray. But laserdisc does have the cool factor going for it.

[blindfury420]

I agree with you on all of that Josh! I think the whole matrix deal is because it was if not is the last pressed? laserdisc!
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I dont own

McMicheal 5001h
Hitachi VIP202P
JCP 686-5705
RCA SKT265, SKT300
RCA SJT400X, SJT425

[dumbchemist]

Hey, blindfury, check this one out (Don't get sticker shock, LOL)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hitachi-VIP101P-1983-CED-Videodisc-Player-Brand-New-Sealed-Box-Never-Been-Opened-/201124728855?pt=UK_ConsumerElec_VCRs&hash=item2ed3f7d017

I collect CED's and LD's and like both formats. Each one has its own weeknesses which is just its charm. I have not encountered laserot though I do have a few LD's which show some sparkles in the video.
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Sears 934.54780150 & 934.54810350
CED-1
Hitachi: VIP2000, 3-VIP1000, VIP201P
GEN10301
RCA SJT-200 SJT-400
DiskLord DP-830

[CEDvince]

[Beetlescott]

What exactly is laser rot?
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SGT-250
SGT-200
SFT-100
SKT-100

[Jesse Skeen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ftDpUJHpcU

When a laserdisc develops noise in the picture and/or sound. Some of the earlier ones are pretty bad, though if they're still fine now they likely will be for a long time. The worst were the late-90s discs made by Sony DADC, which were fine when new but developed rot after a couple years- some say they were badly made on purpose to get people to switch to DVD!
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Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[jbrockhyde80]

I know this is old...but I saw the topic and I have to say something. I don't get on this forum much in the last several years because I've branched out into collecting Colecovision, NES stuff, Atari, Laserdiscs, and still my first collecting hobby CED Videodisc.

I know these types...they also have many videos on youtube. They are LD collectors who put up some demo related to a CED player and discs. They are usually very ignorant about CED...still spreading false info like CEDs get worn out over time by the stylus and become unwatchable, etc.

They talk about how great LD quality is....but when I compare apples to apples (meaning playing Discovision discs on a gas tube player from 1980-81 like the Pioneer VP-1000) it doesn't look that way at all. I don't know what these people are talking about.

I have a VP-1000 that was just serviced by Duncan Hunter (the John Stevens of Laserdisc players...supposedly) and the Pioneer VP-1000 was supposed to be one of the 2 best gas tube players ever. When I play Discovision discs on this player thats in good shape...I see horrible distortion of colors (rainbow effect), washed out color, and excessive skipping that can't be corrected by running the laser over that spot again...even though there are no scratches on the DV discs. When LDs start skipping badly...you often cannot just FF past it. The whole player gets stuck at that point and you just have to take the whole disc out. It's not watchable past that point. From what I can tell these discs were horribly mastered...and pressed in a former furniture factory with no cleanroom standards to speak of. That's why I have over 60 DV discs that skip so badly the entire side is unwatchable. There was dust and debris trapped beneath the coating.

And all this is not to even mention the speckling and other problems. I just focus on the 2 most pervasive problems with Discovision Laserdiscs.

CEDs do not have nearly as many problems when taken care of....and the color and picture quality are often better in fact. Yes I am very aware of the hypothetical technical superiority of even these early DV discs to CED...but when I play the same exact movies side by side....the CED copy looks better at least 9 out of 10 times!!! I have done comparisons with Jaws, Saturday Night Fever, Love Story, Psycho, The Birds, Dracula, Smokey & the Bandit, and 3 Days of the Condor. Ive had guests over who know nothing about either format and I ask them, "What looks better to you...picture A or picture B?" Every time they have picked the CED Videodisc as the better quality picture.

I don't think this guy was an LD afficianado...but nevertheless, here's an example of the morons who spread misinformation about CED:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcnoGk9rztM

Notice my comments on that page. I am the user called pimpingmrli. I couldn't watch the whole thing it got on my nerves so badly.



Sorry about the long rant...but since no one had said this in the thread...I had to.

Do you agree about the DV thing? When played on one of those early players that is?

[Jesse Skeen]

That idiot is showing the CED player on his widescreen TV in 16x9 mode, making everyone short and fat! People who do that are seriously too stupid to live.

Anyways, many of the first Discovision laserdiscs had serious defects and aren't really a good representation of that format. Here's my upload of the 1978 Discovision demo disc, which shows how the first laserdiscs were manufactured- it was later discovered that they needed a completely clean-room environment to come out properly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXcI1QoDPtQ
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Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[jbrockhyde80]

Yes...but I forgot to mention...there are plenty of post DV titles from around 82-86 that do the same stuff. My copies of Raggedy Man and Play Misty for Me and Blood Simple come to mind. And I have found more than a couple titles (although I can't remember these titles specifically) from the next 8 years after that which have the same problems.

What I figured someone would respond and say would be to tell me to get a later model player to use as my main player. One with a laser diode whatever you call it. Like the later Pioneer series.

But don't you think it's worth mentioning that if you were buying one of the 2 disc systems in the early 80's....you would have basically had better quality from RCA's system, than from the expensive MCA, Phillips, and later Pioneer system.

But the format with less practical problems when you are trying to play a movie at home is the one that's now seen as the real piece of shit. Notice I haven't even mentioned the problems with the Magnavision VH-8000/VH-8005 1st gen. home players.

[jbrockhyde80]

About that youtube video linked above...notice how that genius tells us how "the belts were prone to going out on RCA's units"??

Yeah...after 30 years Im sure they are prone to going out. That doesn't mean that RCA had a real belt complaint problem in the 80's.

He says many things that don't make any sense. Just watch the 1st 5 or 7 mins.

[blindfury420]

[happycube]

Yeah - can't hold failed belts/rubber parts against any 30 year old home video equipment. A CED player is probably much easier to fix than a contemporary VCR. Even I could probably fix one... if one turns up around here again. So jealous of the guy on FB who got an SJT400 for $20 on Black Friday!

Actually i was thinking of saying "try a later player" - the early players can't tilt the laser head which is important for dealing with non-flat disks. My CLD-D406 (lowest end of the last series of LD-only players) does pretty well with tracking Discovision, but it doesn't really deal with dropouts.

Ironically I think Discovision quality went *down* as time passed, during the IBM partnership period they were desperate to get any product out, dodgy or not. The worst DV pressing I've seen so far is a 1981 Airplane! pressing for Paramount. I think there's also a survivorship bias on the early Discovisions, as they had to play on the VH8000 to not get returned.

And I agree - the other early 80's disks are often bad, too. But from what I've seen, CED quality was pretty much consistent, and still is if you store them correctly.

More importantly, when did you get that VP1000 back from Duncan? He's had a rather large backlog as of late - when people get players back, sometimes the repair quality isn't up to snuff either. There's a big thread on LDDB about him.

(Bit about the VH8000 edited out, since you already went there. Given that there are almost no working 8000's you *can't* do an apples to apples comparison.)

[Raintree]

The 1981 December issue of popular Science has a comparison of CED and LD and CED got a very favorable review:

http://books.google.com/books?id=XBZpIPL1lloC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=popular+science+december+1981+ced&source=bl&ots=_c3GbDedqv&sig=vr0-Pyxonw99zofTiIGTPG63yoA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=u_d8VOP5AYSBiwKb74E4&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=popular%20science%20december%201981%20ced&f=false

Considering that early LD player top resolution was around 330 lines and CED not much less than that, on a 19" or 25" TV screen, they would have looked practically the same.

LD players also have their problem with belts though not so much having them turn into goo but having them stretch and lose grip causing tray and loading problems. Changing belts out for good ones is pretty easy on most LD and CED players anyway.

I've found that the latest LD players manufactured by Pioneer, the DVL series of players, are pretty good at cutting through LD rot if it isn't terrible. These players seem to have a bit more modern electronics and lasers that work better than the older players. Some of them were made up into the year 2010.

[Jesse Skeen]

There's been mixed opinions about the DVL players. I've been relatively happy with my DVL-909, which I got in 1998 as my first DVD player and used it as my main player for both formats until 2010. The LD playback is generally good but not great- it's still pretty noisy on older rotted discs. A friend had a later DVL-919 and got rid of it because he wasn't happy with the LD playback on it. The best players I've seen for rotted discs have been one from Panasonic, I had a Pioneer CLD-97 which was pretty good too except that viewing it with absolutely no overscan, I got a black line on the bottom of the screen which was just too annoying- additional mechanical problems that would've cost a lot to fix led me to selling it.

The worst thing about the DVL players is they have two pickups- one for DVD and one for LD and CD. When powered off, the DVD pickup always slides into place, so it can get worn out if you mainly use the player just for LDs. I figure if I hook mine up again, I'll just leave it powered on all the time to put less wear on the laser mechanisms.
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Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[Raintree]

I always have found the DVL players to provide excellent playback for LD video image. Some of the detractors are those with elite players, but those who move "up" from a lesser player seem to be pretty happy with them. I have a 919 from 2009 that is superb and I would not trade it for any other.

One way to keep the LD laser on the bottom rail is to leave an LD in the player when switched off. That stops the usual switchover to the DVD laser.

[SelectaVision420]

[Raintree]

Yeah, it's a special multi-voltage model that can run on any voltage worldwide. Supposed to be able to play PAL DVDs too, but I haven't tried that.

Pioneer announced last production of LD players in 2010 with the DVL 919. They made the DVL players for nearly the whole decade after LDs were not being made.

[Jesse Skeen]

I've always heard it's bad for the disc to leave it in the player while it's powered off. I have a few discs that were constantly played in stores which have circular scratches on them, likely some effect from always being in the players- a few locked up while playing and I had to carefully buff the scratches out.
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Videodisc and stereo sound- there's no better value around!

[Raintree]

Never had a problem with doing that, meaning leaving the discs in the player when powered off. In fact, Dad often did that to players he had in the shop that would not be played for a time in order to keep the magnetic clamp lock-up from happening.

I suspect a different issue would cause those circular marks on discs that were constantly played for demonstration purposes. Anything that would cause a circular scratch is logically due to a disc spinning at the same time it hits a fixed impediment.

[happycube]

It's not that the DVL's are bad LD players, it's just that they could've been a lot better. And people often overcharge for them, since they were the last LD players made (I thought discontinuation was in 2009, but maybe that last batch took until 2010 to build...) I think the last dual-side LD family in general (used for the DVL's LD side) is rather good at tracking marginal disks.

If they used the DVD side's red laser, and a better comb filter chip (it's on a separate board, and there was the Japanese H9 with one), it would have been more than just a midrange LD player.[/i]

[Raintree]

I think you are right about the announcement being in 2009, but our 919 does say Jan 2010 on it.

There was one red laser LD player sold in the US, the CLD-1010. Apparently the Feds did not like the idea of a red laser being available to the general public for some sort of misuse, until the advent of DVDs.

The platform, or frame design, of the DVL series is based somewhat upon upon the CLD-D406, 504, 604 series but not entirely. The laser turn system is more like the CLD-D700s, and they do include all updated electronics boards and all the digital picture advancements and all audio options that one finds in the 703 and 704 players.

Pioneer, being the kind of company it is, would not have just sat for years and pump out the same type of players initially made in the mid 90s that had little or no improvements in laser and electronics until 2010. Maybe Sony would have pulled something like that.